Thursday, February 20, 2025

These pro-Westerners try to paint China in a bad light regarding China's trade with coujntries of the South: ,NETIZENS COMMENTS

 

Debate: Is China a Helpful or Horrible Trade Partner for Global South Countries?

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5,608 views Feb 19, 2025 The China-Global South Podcast
At last week's Munich Security Conference, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi touted his country's 5% economic growth last year as a "benefit to the world" thanks to all of the trade it does with countries around the world. While countries in Africa, the Middle East, and Asia, among other regions, are no doubt selling more raw materials to China, critics contend, though, that this trade pattern isn't healthy and mostly in China's favor. This week, Eric, Cobus, and Géraud debate whether Chinese trade is helping or hurting developing countries and whether China's role as the world's manufacturer is also the primary reason why poor countries remain stuck at the bottom of the industrial value chain. JOIN THE DISCUSSION: X: @ChinaGSProject | @eric_olander | @stadenesque Facebook: www.facebook.com/ChinaAfricaProject YouTube:    / @chinaglobalsouth   Now on Bluesky! Follow CGSP at @chinagsproject.bsky.social FOLLOW CGSP IN FRENCH AND ARABIC: Français: www.projetafriquechine.com | @AfrikChine Arabic: عربي: www.alsin-alsharqalawsat.com | @SinSharqAwsat JOIN US ON PATREON! Become a CGSP Patreon member and get all sorts of cool stuff, including our Week in Review report, an invitation to join monthly Zoom calls with Eric & Cobus, and even an awesome new CGSP Podcast mug! www.patreon.com/chinaglobalsouth
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The China-Global South Podcast
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84 Comments

Eng Lam Yeo
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It is a bit rich for an American to level that sort of accusation against China with respect to trading. Does America or the West produce anything for the African market? They certainly were in no rush to make cheap Apples or Mercedes Benzs for the African market They were happy to make big fat easy money selling to a small number of rich in Africa. And they keep their markets closed to African avocadoes for example, and had no need for Africa's resources for the longest time. To suggest that they have a high horse to stand on is frankly laughable. Sure China wins a lot in any win-win situation by design. Do you know anybody going into business not wanting to maximize their own potential gains? What did decades of having wonderful altruistic trading partners like America or Western Europe ever do for Africa?
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One thing that's for sure. China was not involved at all in the African slave trade. That's a western trade for sure.
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33:10 Because China is not to give fish to those countries they inspired to get out of colonial mentality but to teach them how to catch a fish. This is the reason why China is successful. The China government never accepted laziness, dumbness, idleness and more self pity attitude in their countrymen. Western had always been given a fish by the colonizer government. And now that they have to catch fish on their own, they’re crying it’s unfair!🤔😂😂😂
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Synergize is to combine efforts to produce a greater result. China will cooperate and support everyone to produce greater results.
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Africa has been locked into a more than 300 year trading relationship with the West where commodities are exchanged for manufactures. The US inherited this trading framework from Europe and maintained it, albeit leaving Europe - at least before China, with the privilege of selling manufactured goods. South Africa's manufactured trade with the US is a sop, it is not based on manufacturing excellence but on a privilege driven by politics. Its socalled car exporters (BMW, Volkswagen etc.)are not domestically derived but are the same European manufacturers that sell their wares to the US. China's trade with Africa only took off in the 2000s, before that Europe(and Japan to some extent) dominated manufactured goods export to Africa. The lack of raw material processing in the Congo or South Africa are structural and historical, Europe as the first exploiter of African raw materials never established processing plants for even Zambian copper, right up to the 2000s before China became a factor in international trade. European companies like Johnson Matthey (based in London) processed African mineral raw materials, even agricultural products like cocoa and tea where processed offshore outside Africa. In fact despite Ivory Coast's more than 100 years of cocoa trade with Europe it was the Chinese that established the country's first large scale cocoa processing factory. The American superficial argument is to attribute Africa, and the World's trade imbalances to China. The truth is that the East Asians (Japanese, Korean and Chinese) were the first to break out of the lockdown that Europe and the US had on manufactured goods exports. All other countries from Argentina to Brazil, Nigeria and Botswana are still locked into colonial trade patterns. For instance, Argentina's president would prefer to develop trading relations with the US or Europe, but he has nothing to sell. His exports of beef, wine and grains are not needed by the US or Europe. The US argument would be that China is terrible because Argentina can only export agricultural produce!
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The fact that Africa is not exporting enough manufactured goods to China today is because their manufacturing industries are not mature. China is moving manufacturing to Africa as we speak, but this will take time; she is also sharing technology : and it will begin lower on the value chain, just as China did not begin by selling fighter jets and computer chips. Eric is conflating the fact that the developed west is unable to compete with China (not because of subsidies : God knows there are enough of those in the U.S. and Europe - but because of the primacy of the profit motive above all else, and short termism due to the election cycle, meaning that those hundreds of billions in American and European subsidies are not targeted or sustained, but simply appear when overwhelming problems burst into the open, serve to stoke the financial markets, then either fizzle out or get diverted) with immature industry in Africa. These are two different situations. Also, note that when China does manufacture in Africa - say textiles and clothing, then there is endless whining in the west about poor environmental control and low wages, and when China lends to Africa for investment, it’s “debt trap”, and now that China is providing affordable goods Africa needs, it’s about “horrible trading partner” and “trade imbalance.” So GET OVER YOURSELVES. I believe that trade between Africa and the rest of the Global South and China will gradually balance out, even as the West continues to decline and deindustrialise, all the while complaining about China’s “unfair trade practices”.
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These are guys nut. Trade is voluntary. You can shops around the world, if you find the best value for your money you get it.
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Typical American propaganda
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Chinese ptoducts are unreplacedble by the global south.
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The topic is so hilariously stupid tbh. If China is a terrible trading partner, it wouldn't be the largest trading partner of 140 countries. If China is terrible, ask yourself how bad the Western countries must be for the majority of the global south countries to choose China over them?
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I'm Sino Mauritian living in Toronto and watching your videos with interest.
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Thanks for the great discussion! I love hearing all of your perspectives!
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What a fascinating discussion! Thank you so much! 🙏 You offer perspectives on world affairs that can’t be found anywhere else.
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All things failed, the rule of comparative advantage still apply here. Even if a poor African country has almost nothing to sell to the other party, it is still in their best interest to buy the product at the lowest price / highest quality ratio. Never in history, an "ideal trade partner" exists where the partner will be responsible for balanced trade and help the opposite trade partner to move up the value chain. Think of the Opium War of 1840s, China is fully aware that this argument by the west is morally corrupted from the get go. In addition, the charge that China's trade practice is predatory in nature when it trades with the global south is without clear understanding of Chinese sensitivity about their own history. During the 1980s to 1990s, China has almost nothing to sell to the west either. What they had is #1 - large number of decently educated (literate) laborers at ultra low cost, and #2 - a government system eager to adapt and meet every demand from foreign investors, and #3 - half-decent coastal infrastructure (road, rail, ports) that can immediately put in use for manufacturing activities. And this is the tried and true pattern that every other country that got rich have to go through - S. Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Japan, you name it. I don't see why it has to be different in other part of the Global South.
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I really don't understand why the westerner always bitching constantly about inequality trading when they compare to China. China is a manufactur powerhouse so their main goal is export and sells wich is normal but if you have something they don't produce than they will gladly buy it from you so what the points??? Chose your battle and be innovative! More action and less talking!
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Why are these non-coloniser/non-western countries poor/3rd world? Should they remain poor like poor India/Philippines/Vietnam/Laos/Myanmar/Cambodia...? 😊
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Olander be like:" why arent the blackies happy with the trincets we offer for the pillage of their rescources? why do they prefer the Chinese who offer fair value and development?" ...
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Can Africa sell Financial services back to the US or Europe?
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The toughest competition often comes from people who are at the same or close stage of development as you. African countries’ competitors are other African countries because they are at a similar stage of development (Like Rwanda's seizure of DRC's territory and mines). Similarly, India’s competitors are Southeast Asian countries, not China. And the United States’ competitors are China, not Russia.
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Global south countries should make use of any investment to build your infrastructure, education & skilled workers. Once you have these in place, then start to think of export. Do you have anything to export at competitive prices in the open market ? If it's yes, then there's no reason to be afraid.
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The US think they can do without Europe (by jeopardising their relationship), which is hilarious.
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Isnt the biggest ever form of corruption having a colony? aren't the corrupt practices kept long after the colony is jettisoned!!
"...starts doing business legally, legitimately or otherwise..."😂 You have to love the guy!
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😆😆😆I have to laugh at a lot of the comments. There is clearly a lot of "hate-watching" going on!
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Freeport McMoran plunder gold mountain in Papua for decades , give only a very little 2.5 percent of tax to Indonesia and Papua people.
The question of whether Chinese trade with Africa is good or bad misses the point. As you noted before, it's mixed and complicated and can have good and bad simultaneously. Alas such nuance you guys show doesn't sell well with many pundits or online. And on the topic of domestic laws and bribery and such, I sympathize with that Ghanaian lady referenced who said China should use its domestic laws to try and combat such illegal practices in Ghana given the states lack of ability to do anything about illegal logging and such. But as Geraud notes, at some point, you can't expect the Chinese to do everything for Ghana and Africa's problems at large. They have to enforce their own laws. A great discussion, guys.
What about trading with USA? What would USA buy from Africa, slaves??
37:58 Ouch! How was it Eric. It hurts to hear to truth. That’s right. Let’s discuss the full picture, two sides of the coin, the complete history. Whatever suits you. In short, don’t be biased!
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After centuries "trading" with the west where are African countries today? Até least China is building in Afrika, not lecturing. You need roads to develop, not self-serving lectures.
My problem with “devil’s advocate” side is they’re advocating evilness🤣
To the central core of the competition, it is the reluctance to go back after decades of cheap goods from developing countries easy life of business share profits, now you are faced with majority of factories already out of the west. To go back means you will have to accept the bitter pill & sacrifices required. How can you !? Falling from "millionaire to bankrupt" do you have the strength to take the pill !!? Mark my word, there's no short cuts to this. Look at china's history, when a great dynasty is declining, it too, will try short cuts without the hard work. It will slowly deteriorate over time, back there, it may take centuries until the people's living is reduced to so difficult that there's no such thing as bitter pill but WORST, survival !!! Then they will topple the dynasty. How long can today's west take this bitter pill will determine how long they will "up the curve". Any other means to reverse this are just trying desperately address THE SYMPTOMS. Remember, now your wages are much higher than China, you can't compete unless you willing to take the bitter pill - HARD WORK with lower wage !!!! Donald trump, although unorthodox, maybe increasing taxes thru guise of tariffs, hopefully distribute it to the poor at the same time getting all the other west that exploited low wages of developing countries to stop this practice !!! Bottom line, it boils down to the bitter pill to take !!!! Your situation puts you not in a position of strength. Not reforming, will result in deteriorating standard of living until the whole system collapse, like how dynasties failed !!!! Mark my word again !!! You are not far from it !!! Make comparison like in xiao hong su.
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Why don't we listen more and argue less. I couldn't even hear the view points.
I think many people in China have also thought about the issue of trade imbalance. The answer is the "New quality productive forces" proposed by Xi Jinping, which means (in my opinion) entering a new industrial revolution. Assuming that the next industrial revolution means the arrival of the space age, then global unemployment will no longer be a problem.
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See wedges where there are NONE. Tsk, tsk.
Eric your confusing politics and governance.
US companies don't need to pay the bribes because they have the right to sue host governments under Investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS). ISDS constrains a nation's sovereign right to enact policies in favor of public interest. This law has made gun boat diplomacy unnecessary
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It´s not countries, from the south or otherwise, selling high-value manufactured products to China instead of raw materials, it´s the fact that no country in South America or Africa can produce a simple hammer, even for their domestic market, because China is dumping those at super low prices. The same goes for coffee mugs, plates, kitchenware, all sorts of mechanical and electrical tools, plumbing tools, carpentry tools, chairs, even tables along with refrigerators, microwave ovens, televisions, telephones and everything else. Only Vietnam, Mexico and a few other countries can actually compete with China in the manufacturing of those low value items and China will never let them sell their stuff in their market. This terrible trade imbalance is leaving millions of people without jobs all over the world. China enjoys trade surpluses with almost every South American country, and I wouldn´t be surprise if the same is happening with Africa.
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